BtH2 E1 Beyond the headlines … at Manchester Museum with Senna Yousef and Caitlin Nunn

Michaela Benson [MB]: Welcome to Who do we think we are? Beyond the headlines. The podcast which dissects the major global news stories about contemporary migration. I'm Michaela Benson.

Ala Sirriyeh [AS]: And I'm Ala Sirriyeh. In our day jobs, we're sociologists at Lancaster University, and we work on migration. We've also got our own family migration stories that inspired our research in this area. Join us over the course of the series to hear more about our frustrations with the way that migration is so often reported in mainstream media, and how going beyond the headlines can create the space for thinking differently about migration today. Hello, I'm Ala. And Michaela and I are delighted to be joined today by Caitlin Nunn, and Senna Yousef on our first podcast outing out of our offices and into the real world. Today we're at the Manchester Museum to talk with Caitlin and Senna about their research project which is titled 'Ancient history, contemporary belonging', a creative exploration of migration of ancient historical objects with migrant background, young people. Hello, Senna and Caitlin.

Senna Yousef [SY]: Hello.

Caitlin Nunn [CN]: Hi.

AS:So today, Caitlin and Senna are going to be showing us around an exhibition from the project at the museum as we discuss the research that informed this. So just before we do that, I'll give you a brief bio for both Caitlin and Senna. So, centre is 17 years old currently studying at college she is doing psychology, sociology, biology and textiles. And her subject choices are reflective of her interests, and she hopes to go on to study something in a related or similar fields these A Level subjects with a heritage from Palestine and Syria, she has always been fascinated in learning more about her country's history and culture. Caitlin is a research fellow in the Manchester Centre for youth studies at Manchester Metropolitan University. She works at the intersection of youth studies and migration studies, collaborating with refugee and migrant background young people to explore their lived experiences of migration, integration and belonging.  Fantastic

MB: Fantastic and entry beyond the headlines form, we are going to start with a headline. And we've chosen the headline from The Guardian that was published around the time of the coronation of King Charles. And the headline reads, 'Camilla to wear recycled crown without Kon-i-Noor diamond at coronation'. And of course, this taps into some of the things that we're going to discuss today, because what this is a reminder of is a very long standing dispute over the ownership of the Koh-i-noor Diamond. And the question of whether Britain should return it to India, I think is the current topic of conversation around that. So Senna, I thought I'd come to you first and ask you what springs to mind when you hear that headline

SY: I guess, progress. I mean, there's there's power in recognition, right. So there's a great thing about the fact that Camilla isn't wearing the diamond, it just shows that even though, you know, the protests and the requests, and the petitions might not be going in the way that a lot of activists want them to go. And obviously we do want further action. It is great to see that our voices are being heard people's voices are reaching these people higher up to the point where the royal family has gotten the message that maybe we shouldn't be wearing this diamond. So at least there is a form of recognition, and it gives hope for progress.

MB: I think that's a really great reflection on exactly those issues around, you know, the public actually the public interest in in such an issue as well.

CN: I guess I'm more cynical than Senna because I think what was interesting for me is how much was implicit in that headline. So we know it's important that she doesn't wear the diamond. But the reasons for this, the fact that it was taken from India, as part of you know, extended processes of colonial domination and extraction aren't mentioned in the headline. And even when you get into the article, it's kind of named and you hear about, you know, the Indian Prime Minister, saying that it brings back painful memories of the colonial past, but then the article takes this weird turn into kind of the history and fashion of crowns. And there's a risk that that we then begin to see that that not wearing of the diamond as a kind of fashion choice rather than as something more significant. But also the fact that you know, while it names the, I guess, the controversy around the diamond, it really ignores the broader picture around should we, you know, she's not wearing it, but nonetheless, it's not being returned either. So we're in this kind of ambivalent space, where we're performing the correct way of being but not actually enacting genuine transformation.

MB: Thanks for that, Caitlin. And I think we'll put some references into the Episode notes of some other podcasts that have been discussing the Koh-i-noor Diamond. And exactly those kinds of stories about reparation and return of artefacts, Ala over to you.

AS: So this question of how we engage with artefacts brought here from different parts of the world, brings us round quite nicely to the research project that we're talking about today. So I'd like to invite you, Senna and Caitlin to introduce the research project to us and tell us a little bit about this relationship between studying ancient objects and how this connects to contemporary migration.

CN: The project is a participatory arts based research project. And it draws on both archival research and young people's lived experiences of migration, to recreate the stories of ancient objects that are held by Manchester Museum. And it really began as a long slow conversation between myself as a sociologist and my colleague in the Manchester Centre for youth studies, Jenny Cromwell, who's an ancient historian, and we were thinking about the ways in which the past and past migrations are rendered visible in the present and how we might make that more meaningful. And so we were really lucky to receive some funding to build that into a project and to work with Dr. Sarah Linn, and an amazing team of Manchester-based youth researchers from Iranian Iraqi, Kurdish, Palestinian and Syrian backgrounds on the exhibition that we'll be talking about today. And we've been working in partnership with Manchester Museum and also with a local migrant led arts organisation Sheba Arts. In terms of the relationship between ancient objects and contemporary migration, I think, what's really interesting when we talk about migration, when you see it in the media, when it's used in political discourse, it's really framed as a contemporary problem that needs to be managed. And I think what that veils is the fact that migration is a central part of national and world histories. And what's great about working with ancient objects is it really opens up to us the long history of migration and interconnection. And it really challenges us to reimagine the story of the world as one that's grounded in movement rather than in fixed borders and fixed communities. So I think  what this project has allowed us to do is to go right back to those ancient histories of trade and empire that are reflected in some of the objects that were working with, through the colonial era, during which many UK museums and collections were created, and into contemporary flows of migration, both forced and voluntary, through which the youth research team and I have come to settle in the UK.  I didn't if you want to say something about the research process and how we work together.

SY: So we started off initially with like a welcome workshop. And that was kind of we just were brought in, we got to know the people running the project, who are Caitlin, Jenny and Sara. And we just got to know what the project was going to be about. And then we started doing more in depth workshops, we kind of explored different art forms, we explored different histories, we also got to know some of the work that the museum was doing, etc. And that kind of gave us a broader idea of how far we could go with the project, which was, which was really fun. And we just got to know about what was the work that we were meant to be doing in the project as well. And then with the support of Jenny, we started collecting research about the objects that we had chosen. So we got access to the museum catalogue. And we chose objects, some people chose more than one most people kind of stuck to just one. And with the help of Jenny, we collected information about these objects, where they came from, the history behind, them how they ended up in the UK. And we helped look for most of us, we use that information to kind of help us formulate the art form that we chose. And to create the story about these objects with obviously their history in mind, because we didn't want to erase their history. And then we all worked with a mentor from Sheba Arts, each one of us had a mentor some people think had to as well. And we decided on our art form, they helped aid and support us in whatever form that we had chosen. They also helped advocate for us and our creative process sometimes because we would, we'd kind of limit ourselves and then at least for myself, my mentor would be like 'no, think bigger, you know, go go do something more'. So it was really great, because I don't think I would have achieved as much as I have had I not had my mentor with me. The great thing about our artwork in the end was that it was reflective upon the objects that we had chosen. But it was also reflected upon our own experiences. And that was just the beauty of this project. It was kind of intermingling both the histories and the stories of the objects in the museum and our own stories, which for some people were not quite as different as you'd think. That's great Senna. I just wondered though, could I take a step back and ask you what, you know, obviously there's that you talked about coming to the museum for the welcome event.

MB: But how did you find out about it? And what did you think it was going to be?

SY: This is funny. So my, my mom just found a poster on Facebook. And she was she just literally, this was what happened. She sent me a screenshot with just a bunch of question marks. And I just read through it. And I was like, 'if you're asking if I'm interested, yes, I am'. And she went, 'Okay, cool. Contact them' because there was a number at the bottom. So I had contacted the number and it was Sarah, who had responded back to me. And she was telling me about what days were the, you know, the welcome sessions. And so I had gone to one of them, and I'd attended. And although I didn't really have much of a clue what was going on, at that point, I just knew that I find this interesting. So I was like, 'Yeah, I'll stick around for it'. And then as the project went on, I started to get more of an idea about what the project was about. And I just came to really enjoy it through that. But yeah, it started with a Facebook post.

MB: That's great.

AS: So now we're gonna invite Senna and Caitlin to show us around the exhibition. And they're going to pick out a few of the different artefacts and stories to talk about. So we're gonna go on a little bit of a wander.

MB: Okay, so we're standing by centres contribution to the exhibition centre, can you start by describing to us what is in the cabinet

SY: So in the cabinet right in the middle of each of the two lamps that I chose, and I chose to do two, and the entire cabinet is decorated with 3d replicas with 3d printed a bunch of replicas of the same lamps, and some of them are hanging down from the cabinet. Some of them are kind of just like, bundled around, and just left, you know, scattered around the base of the cabinet. And we chose to do a very minimalist approach, because the case right next to mine, is full of lamps. So we chosen to do this kind of contrast of like, very, very, you know, full and then quite minimalistic, and empty. And then right at the end of my case, I've got the so I did a video. So I've got the Arabic and the English translations of my script just posted at the top.

MB: There's also something else in the cabinet Senna.

SY: Oh, yeah. There's also my artist statement, which was is kind of just explaining what was my creative process behind my cabinet, also my art form. And then there's also a little card explaining the heritage of the lamps and where they came from. And the great thing about this was the original record that the museum had was quite it just said, 'Syria, Palestine'. And what I'd recognise was that they hadn't located which country it is in modern day terms. So we had corrected it to the Arabic translation, also the English word of the Levant or Bilad E-Sham, which was what it was called at the time of these lamps. And it just kind of corrected the original record that the museum had to a more accurate record.

AS: When you were looking through the catalogue, you described how you look through all the different objects and made your selection, what was it that drew you to these lamps?

SY: So we actually were fortunate enough to get a visit of the, the stores in the museum. So it wasn't until we actually got to see the archives and museum that I actually decided to do the lamps. Because I was kind of on the fence. I was like, Yeah, I want to do a lamp, but maybe I don't. And then we went into the archives, and I saw just the drawers full of, you know, full of lamps. And that like inspiration just struck, and I was like, Yeah, I want to do a lamp that was that was I think the defining moment up until that point, I was on the fence. I wasn't too sure. Because I knew that I wanted to do something that was quite used in day to day life, something that would just relate to everybody. But I also didn't know what that object would be up until that archive visit.

MB: Could you talk us through a little bit the story that you have created in that video about the lamps.

SY: So the story follows the two lamps who are inside the cabinet of the museum archives. And they begin the video with kind of complaining about how they they're stuck and they hate that they are forgotten inside these drawers. And then we go on to learning about the stories of these lamps. And each one of them tells their story about how they will use back at the time. So one of the lamps, which was actually voiced by my father talks about how he was used by soldiers. And he used to go and fight wars with them. And he saw some of them lose their comrades. And then the other lamp would talk about she was voiced by my mother. I know I refer to them as he and she, but it's because of their voices. So and then that lamp that was voiced by my mum, she talks about how a potter had made her for them to celebrate a 20-year anniversary with his wife, and how she ended up celebrating all of their marriage with them. And then they talk about how they're kind of discarded and they're just forgotten now and they just put away in these drawers and they're just never, you know, never seen again. And I wanted to kind of bring it back to the stories of a lot of migrants in this country. Unfortunately, a lot of people in this country come with a lot of skills as highly skilled migrants in this country. However, because of the difficulties that they have in this country, of either their qualifications are not recognised, etc, they kind of ended up being rendered useless the same as these lamps. They still have use, they can still be useful to society, but it's just really hard for them to do so. So a lot of people kind of give up. And it was kind of a personal story because it links back to my own family story. Both my parents are very highly educated. But when they came to this country, they couldn't do anything with their education. So I just kind of wanted to highlight that through kind of personifying my own lamp's stories.

MB: Thank you. So what's our next? What's the next step in the outing? We've walked downstairs, and we're in another part of the exhibition. And the Caitlin, you're gonna tell us what we're looking at here.

CN: Yeah, so we're looking at an untitled artwork by Ferdos Beit Lafteh and it's inspired by a collection of bronze arrowheads. And what Ferdos has done is she has chosen to emphasise the beauty of these arrowheads by arranging them as though they're flowers in a vase. So she's got 3d prints of the arrowheads, and she's using copper wire as the stems of the flowers. And she has created a pottery vase that was informed in its design by what she'd seen on the visit to Iran where she'd had a look at some contemporary pottery. And for Ferdos, as she says in her artist statement, this transformation of violence into beauty has wider resonance in terms of wanting to say something positive and create a positive representation of migrants and their journeys. But I think the reason that I wanted to draw attention to it is also that the arrowheads are more broadly significant for the project in terms of thinking about this long history of migration that we've been talking about. Because while they were found in Egypt, they were actually located with a range of Persian artefacts, which suggests that they date back to the Persian invasion and conquest of Egypt in around 525 BCE. And so then, of course, these arrowheads have had a subsequent migration to the UK as artefacts for display. So I think this is like a really lovely representation of the movement of people and objects across borders, as much more than a contemporary phenomenon.

MB: So we're on to the third object now. So Senna tell us why you've selected this one.

SY: So this is a piece by one of my project mates called Zeen. So her work her chosen object was this small pendant that you can see at the bottom, is that wall tile?

MB: I mean, it's so tiny. I wonder, yeah, that must have been really lost in the, in the drawers.

SY: Yeah, it was, and I remember she was telling us about, so then obviously, you can see this to kind of clay statues the earth, you know, on both sides of the piece. So what Zeen's creative process was, was kind of born from a misunderstanding, which I just love the story. So what ended up happening was, as she was searching through the catalogue, she'd found the small little ivory relief, and she had just kind of been really interested in it. And in the photo, she had thought that the woman on the ivory relief was screaming. So she had, she was like, that had spoken to me. And I really wanted to do that. But then when we had been, so we'd gotten the opportunity to actually see the objects and touch them and feel them as well. So once she'd received that she had realised that it was just a piece of her mouth that had been chipped off. But obviously, she kind of rolled with that theme. And she ended up creating a piece and she called the Kurdish pain, she is of Kurdish descent. And she talked about how, you know, she kind of wanted to use this to project and kind of explain the pain that a lot of Kurdish people feel because they are, they do face quite a lot of persecution. And I just absolutely love and adore her piece because of the amount of intricacies and details there are in it. But how she kind of reinterpreted the story of this ivory relief was also kind of maintaining its own story. But yeah, that's why it's one of my favourites.

MB: Quite interesting to see how that creative process gets sparked, isn't it?

CN: I mean, I think it's important to in this case, that that she'd actively sought objects that were located in Kurdistan. And she found this object which is from Nimrud, which is on the border of Kurdistan in contemporary Iraq. And so she really, you know, she felt that they'd come from the same place and that was, that was a really key part of that connection.

AS: I liked the story that drew you to that that misinterpretation of the expression but I think that also really brings out how these are not just neutral objects that are received in the same way by everybody and I know that's it that's a funny little story, but it's you know, we do because of the histories we we bring with us and we do see things with with a different eye and that's such a beautiful and funny way into

SY: It is honestly, yeah

MB: So we've just found, hopefully a quiet corridor here in the museum. Caitlin, I just wanted to come back to you because we've just walked around the museum looking at three different objects. And I think there's something about the placement of those objects within the museum that's really important to you, the young people that you've been working with, and to the museum, do you want to talk us through that a bit more?

CN: Yeah. So when we began working with the museum and talking to them about the project, the initial idea is that we would have a temporary exhibition somewhere in the museum. But as the conversations emerged, and as the work emerged, and was, as we got to know each other and what we were trying to achieve, it was reimagined to integrate the objects and artworks across the Egypt and Sudan and the archaeology galleries. And it was, I wonder, maybe if Senna you want to talk about that, because the way in which it's framed in museological terms is as a disruption, but that was something that felt quite uncomfortable.

SY: We didn't want it to be referred to as a disruption, because we just wanted it to, we wanted it to be known as kind of as a fact more or less as a disruption. Because, I mean, if we're going to link it back to our own stories, we're not here to disrupt anything, we're not here to ruin anything, we're just here to potentially bring upon positive change. And also, you know, bring back the stories to the rightful people, I guess. Like me, and a lot of the other youth researchers kind of contested against the idea of it being referred to as a disruption. We didn't want to kind of have an isolated place, we wanted to be within everything else, and kind of be known that we are our own project, but also kind of blend in with everything else.

CN: I think it's really ... I think there are people who are who are going to encounter this this exhibition because they've come looking for it, but I think the majority of people who are going to encounter it are going to stumble across it. And I think there's something really lovely about that, that in the midst of a whole lot of archaeological material, there are these these artworks that are going to arrest people's attention or challenge people to see things in new ways.

AS: That seems like such an important point to emphasise because often so much in the inner kind of dissemination work we do with projects around migration, it's often we ended up speaking to people who already know a little bit about it or inclined to that. So it's this is always the really difficult question is how to reach that broad audience. And it just seeing people actually, as we're recording, seeing people wander around, and little children wandering around teenagers, people of all different ages and backgrounds coming across these objects is actually really lovely to see in practice. And yeah.

MB: And I think it's also that idea, you know, I really like those reflections on why you don't want it to be understood. It's disruptive. But it's also like, it's a political point about sustaining that narrative. So, you know, not not necessarily thinking that this is a temporary exhibition, which, of course, is what it could have been.

SY: Yeah, that that definitely is kind of one of the reasons as well. And we're hopeful that the like, we know, the exhibition is going to be around for a few years. And we're hopeful that, you know, maybe it's there for longer. But, yeah, we definitely don't want it to just be a temporary thing.

CN: I think we've been really warmed and humbled by some of the feedback from audiences and visitors, particularly people from migrant backgrounds, who've really, perhaps for the first time felt invited into the museum space and invited to have a sense of belonging and who've really been able to connect to the objects through the artworks and through the stories that the youth researchers have told.

AS: The point about disruption. And the way you were able to intervene in that discussion, says something a little bit about the participatory approach of this, this project. And I wondered whether it if Senna, Caitlin, perhaps both of you, would like to say something about the value of participatory approaches to researching migration. So I know, Caitlin, you've been doing this for a very long time and Senna, you've had direct experience of participating.

CN: I mean, I guess the first thing that it's really important first to acknowledge is that research, including sociology is not innocent of the kinds of processes of colonial extraction that we've been talking about in relation to the museum. There's a long history of researchers going into communities, particularly in the Global South, and extracting and appropriating knowledge and not really, really engaging with those communities or not seeking to share the benefits of the recognition of the work. So I think for me, a key part of using participatory approaches is opening up possibilities for a more ethical and more reciprocal relation that honours the contribution of communities, but also seeks to make sure that research serves the people that we're researching with. And I think particularly in terms of working with migrant background communities, and particularly refugee background communities, thinking about the UK context where people's agency and voice are often not recognised and respected. I think that we have an ethical imperative imperative of sociologists to not reproduce that system, systemic violence in the work that we do. And I think the great thing is it's also just really great for the research. I think it leads to really exciting insights, you know, and I hope that this project demonstrates the power of centering the knowledge and the experience of migrant background communities. That I think you've already you've heard from Senna already in this podcast, the knowledge and experience from different traditions and places and cultures that the youth team have brought to the project has just opened up such incredible opportunities to ask different kinds of questions, and to generate different kinds of understandings and to use our research in different kinds of ways. And we couldn't have done this project in a traditional academic team. And I think particularly working with arts has let us really push back against kind of white western masculine kind of modes of doing research and understanding the world, which is something that I think we're grappling with in sociology more generally, but I think is also really critical in my thinking about working with migrant background communities that I hope what people see when they encounter the exhibition, and what they come to understand is not just intellectual knowledge, but it's embodied and emotional.

MB: And how about you Senna from the point of view of participating in a project like this?

SY: One of the great things about our project was the fact that we kind of were given a lot of freedom to do what we wanted. And I think if anybody ever wants to collaborate with young people about any sort of project, I think the great, one of the best things that you can do is giving them the freedom to do whatever they want, obviously, within limit, but within a reasonable limit. Because the great thing was, we were kind of just told, 'do you know what, imagine the biggest thing that you can imagine, and then we'll see if it's possible to do or not'. So that was really great, because some of us aimed really high. And, you know, what we were able to do we did, and what we weren't able to do, we found, you know, alternatives for, but I just think it's really, it's really important that when you are participating with a person, it's more than just kind of like, we just want you to do X, Y, Zed, you know, make them feel like they are actually participating in the project, not just doing the work that you want them to do. But I think that was one of the great things that we got, in this project that we kind of got given the opportunity to choose whatever we wanted to do. And the fact that we were told you can choose any art form, you know, art is just so large, like, I know, nobody took this opportunity, but we were introduced to a musician from Sheba arts as well. So we were given the opportunity to also work with things like music, it didn't have to be written forms, or just visual forms, it could have been also just sound. But that was just really empowering in itself, to be honest.

CN: I think. I One of the great things isthe journey that we've been on together, I think that you know, this was a project born of the COVID era with Jenny and I sitting in our computers in our in our bedrooms. But where we've got to now is, is really, we feel like we're serving the youth researchers' project now. And in fact, we've got some additional funding from UKRI, to do some more work. And that work is being led by the youth researchers. And I think that that that process of transferring knowledge and power is really critical. Because I think we have to be honest, it's not easy work. It's not easy doing participatory work for any of us. And it really needs bravery. And it needs care because power and privilege don't disappear just because you're using participatory approaches. And it's something that we've really grappled with in the project that the youth researchers have really held us to account for. And it really challenged us to think about what does it mean for people to have to engage with their heritage in a way that's mediated by white Western institutions and white western academics. And I think we've taken that challenge really seriously. And we still make loads of mistakes. But I think we're really working together and engaging in really difficult and important conversations about about how to do it better.

MB: I think that's really great. And it's been really inspiring to hear from you both about your experiences of working on that project. What do you think your main takeaway messages are from today?

SY: I mean, from today, my takeaway message is, people can interpret different movements with different power and different consequences as well. And one of the things that was associated with our project quite a lot was the word discomfort. But we kind of emphasise the fact that discomfort is caused. It's never intended to cause discomfort for every group possible. There's always going to be groups that are more comfortable with certain pieces than others. And I think my takeaway from today would just be the fact that people can interpret everything differently. And that's not necessarily an incorrect thing. It's just being open to hearing other people's views and seeing why people view different issues and different debates the way that they do.

MB: I think those are some really excellent reflection Senna on, you know, how people receive and read those objects differently. But Caitlin, what about for you? What are your takeaway messages?

CN: I think what what Senna said, really summed up a lot of a lot of what's really important to us in the work that we're doing. But I think it is important that we have those difficult conversations, and that we have them across different communities and different ways of knowing and that we have them with institutions and within institutions, and that we really create space for for polyvocality, that we allow there to be different voices in these conversations. So I guess in doing this work, I think a lot about the radical educator Paulo Freire and his idea that you need to be able to name the world in order to change it. And that in order for us to move forward into creating more hopeful futures and more inclusive politics of belonging, we actually need to name that difficult past and have those difficult conversations.

MB: Thank you very much.

AS: Thank you both to the centre and Caitlin for hosting us today at the Manchester Museum. We were talking about how long this exhibition is one for and , there's no fixed end date, but it's good to probably be here for about a year or two. So if anyone listening is in Manchester, I would strongly recommend coming along and having a look. But where else could if people are interested in finding out bit more about the research and they don't have the luck of being able to visit Manchester. Where could they find out about your work online?

CN: One of the aspects of this project was that we really wanted it to be accessible beyond Manchester and particularly to to heritage communities elsewhere. So the exhibition is online. It's online in multiple languages. And it's just at historyandbelonging.com. That's fantastic. Thank you both very much.

SY: Thank you so much for having us.

CN: Thank you.

MB: You've been listening to Who do we think we are? Beyond the headlines, a podcast series produced and presented by Ala Sirriyeh and Michaela Benson. Thanks to Emma Houlton at Brilliant Audio for production and post production support and to George Kalivis for our fantastic cover art and social media assets. We'd also like to thank Niamh Welby, who provides much needed support behind the scenes to get these episodes together. If you like what you've heard, follow and rate us on your preferred podcast platform. You can check out our shownotes for further resources, transcripts, and links to all our socials. You can also find us at who do we think we are.org. That's all for now, but we'll be back with another headline next month.